Search results for tag #xmpp
#XSF Summit 27
Today is the second day discussing diverse topics around the #XMPP #protocol! 
Participate: https://xmpp.org/2024/11/xmpp-summit-27/#participation
#jabber #chat #interoperability #rtc
#opensource #decentralization #standard
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The XMPP Logo
@maple @menel you can use #xmpp with easy onboarding just like with any of these centralized chat systems:
1. just install an app (conversations, monal, Dino, gajim), create an account on some server (these apps usually provide a list to pick from) and you are good to go. Mostly like email (e.g. choose a provider, create an account there and configure your mail app to use it)
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THIS! THIS is what I have been trying to get across to the #XMPP proponents!!! Setting up an XMPP server (and obtaining a certificate if necessary) needs to be EASY (WITHOUT REQUIRING A PHONE NUMBER!!!!!). Configuring a client should also be EASY and should not require the server to have a signed certificate if the user doesn't care about that (particularly when the server is on the same local network as the user).
Here's the easiest thing Linux developers can do to win more users
https://www.zdnet.com/article/heres-the-easiest-thing-linux-developers-can-do-to-win-more-users/?utm_source=flipboard&utm_medium=activitypub
@menel Well look who showed up trying to defend their business model.
To answer your question, there is some cloud-based #XMPP server that actually does require a phone number to open an account. In my view privacy goes right out the window when you have to provide a phone number, plus it disadvantages people who do not have a phone number of their own (such as people who only use a desktop computer). With #Signal there are at least workarounds, though they are not easy workarounds.
Who wants to talk within one single local network? I do, and I am probably as old as (maybe older than) your parents. And if you expand the definition of local network to include a local network accessed through a private VPN (note I said PRIVATE), then probably a lot more people. But anyway not everyone has the same requirements.
But I explained why I would never use #Snikket in a previous post. Frankly, I think you are being deceptive by implying that it has to cost money to run a XMPP server. There are several XMPP servers that can be installed and run locally that don't cost a dime, they are just quite difficult to set up.
And finally, just how is it simple to obtain (and keep renewed) a certificate IF you are not running a public-facing web server? Let's Encrypt wants to be able to come into your web server (I forget the exact details but you probably already know them) and not everyone has one. AND that was never an issue until the fucking clients started refusing to talk to servers without a valid certificate. And again, that is not EASY to set up. I assume you must be a programmer or a system administrator because you seem to have no conception of the idea that what's simple for you is NOT necessarily easy for normal users. And getting a certificate definitely falls into that category.
@menel Well I assumed from your domain that you were connected with #Snikket in some way. You might want to think about posting from a different instance if you don't want people making that assumption, but anyway I apologize for the confusion.
As I pointed out in a earlier reply, where someone posted a link to the Snikket site, the first thing they do is ask you to create an account there (WHY???). I don't think there is any way to locally host an instance of Snikket without paying them something, but if I am wrong it's probably because they don't seem to let you see much without registering. But honesty I get frustrated because EVERY SINGLE TIME a discussion like this appears someone immediately suggests Snikket, and I have looked at it before (multiple times) and decided it's just not right for me. I even had to block one guy because he kept harping on and on about Snikket. At this point I am frustrated because some people think Snikket, or that other cloud service that requires a phone number (that I don't remember the name of), are the answer to any objections about using #xmpp
If you can run Prosody (and even customize it) then you probably have no conception of how difficult XMPP is for ordinary users. And what frustrates me is when the XMPP crowd starts trying to shame people for using Signal or some similar app. I will never argue that XMPP isn't better than Signal. What I will argue is that many users have no idea what XMPP even is (and neither do their friends or family) and of those who DO know what it is, most find it much more difficult than it should be to set up and use, assuming they even want to try it in the first place. If you are a developer, programmer, or sysadmin you will never understand this, because your brain is not wired in the same way as a normal user's.
Think about someone who has never used anything other than Windows. How difficult do you think it would be for them to set up and use Prosody? Yet IF THEY HAVE A PHONE and are willing to give up the number (and lose all their privacy) then they can get onboard with Signal easily and in a very short time. And regrettably, most users don't seem to care about privacy these days.
So it frustrates me a lot that people advocate for XMPP (and try to shame people who don't use it in some cases) without understanding that if you don't make it SUPER easy to install and use, nobody that's not a tech nerd is going to use it. And they think the "solutions" that already exist are adequate, but they're not. Or they think that if THEY set up a server and get their friends and family on it (kind of like trying to herd cats in some cases) then that solves the problem, but it only does for them and THEIR friends and family. It doesn't do a thing for those people who might like to self-host a XMPP server but find the process far too complicated. And it frustrates me plenty that EVERY time I say this the Snikket people come around and think that's the answer, no wonder their mascot is a parrot, to me they are all like a bunch of squawking parrots that have no idea how little pain users are willing to tolerate (especially when Signal is SUCH an easy alternative).
Okay, putting my hand up to help potential switchers. If you're thinking of switching to #XMPP this #GlobalSwitchDay, drop me a private mention and I can help you figure things out! Offer valid till stocks last
(I've been using XMPP-based federated messaging since forever, and know a bunch of servers including some I can invite you to, as well as a bunch of apps depending on your needs. This is just me though so I'll have to close if I get too flooded!)
#BoostsAppreciated #GuidedSwitch
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A brightly coloured social media banner saying "February 1st 2025: Global Switch Day"
Underneath are two coloured squares containing the WhatsApp and XMPP logos respectively. An arrow pointa from WhatsApp to XMPP
So. Matrix or XMPP.
If you like, comment on the why you prefer Y. (I'd say X but that is weird in this context...)
#federation #selfhosting #selfhosted #jabber #xmpp #matrix #messaging #linux #computer
| XMPP: | 76 |
| Matrix: | 34 |
Closed
#XSF Summit 27
We are starting soon discussing diverse topics around the #XMPP #protocol!
Participate: https://xmpp.org/2024/11/xmpp-summit-27/#participation
#jabber #chat #interoperability #rtc
#opensource #decentralization #standard
Alt...
The XMPP Logo
@tigase @andrzej I hope SOMEONE, ANYONE will get it across that if they want more acceptance of #XMPP they need to have a way to set up a PRIVATE (NOT "in the cloud") XMPP server that's drop-dead simple to set up and configure, and that does not EVER ask for a phone number. And as long as XMPP clients refuse to talk to servers with self-signed certificates, then they need to automate getting a valid certificate and renewing it.
The reason is that more people will become familiar with XMPP is they can EASILY set up an XMPP server for family/friends use. Maybe even just for use on their own private network. If you have to deal with configuration files or strange commands entered at the command line to manage the server (I am looking at you, #prosody) that is not easy. If you have to go and try to get a certificate or renew (and figure out how let's encrypt works) that is not easy, especially if you are not running any kind of public-facing web server.
Setting up an XMPP server should be easier than setting up something like Homelab. And if the attitude is that you don't want to make it as easy as possible for users, then don't shake your fist and yell at clouds when people choose an easy alternative such as #Signal. And yes that is a cloud service and asks for a phone number, but if you are just going to try and emulate that experience then the majority of people will say "I'd rather go with the service I have heard of, and that my friends/family use, rather than this XMPP thing I have never heard of and that will likely be a pain in the ass to deal with."
(Oh, and if you have set up a XMPP server for your friends and family and have set up their phones, laptops, and desktop computers to use it, that's great and I applaud you. But 99% of people don't have a "you" in our lives. And there might be a lot more "you"'s if XMPP weren't so damn difficult.)
@lbja @menel @tigase @andrzej Nope. You go to that site and the first thing they want you to do is "sign in or create an account." WHY??? If I am wanting to run my own local #XMPP server why can't I simply install the software from Flathub, or using apt install or something like that?
See, #Snikket is just another company that wants to be the gatekeeper for your communications, and as far as I can tell they insist that it has to cost money. I didn't care to really get into the gory details but they do not fit the definition of easy (or private). At least not for the person who would prefer to have their own private XMPP server.
So, HARD pass. If I have to use someone else's server (even if it's supposedly "my" instance - so what? If It were really MY instance I would not need to pay them anything!) why would I not just use Signal? Other than that Signal requires a phone number, I see no real advantage, and far more people have heard of or use Signal. Oh, and Signal is completely free to use.
BTW, I blocked the last person who kept harping on about Snikket even after I said "no way", don't be the second! :)
Quick question for anyone that has used #snikket - I get that there is support for video/audio 1:1, but does it support group video conferences? If not, has anyone added Jitsi to it and got that functionality?
Need to setup a chat server for a *small* social thing, and trying to decide between Matrix (synapse) or XMPP (snikket). But need the video conf. functionality.
I've set up coturn for Prosody and cannot make calls. I just get "connecting...", but the call does not connect. Can't see anything wrong in the logs, coturn seems to work, I can connect to it using "telnet erebion.eu 5349" and I've got no idea what's wrong. :(
Welche XMPP-Clients könnte ich Familienmitgliedern installieren die keine Lust auf Technik haben?
Muss E2EE als Default machen.
Die nutzen Android und iOS.
Conversations sieht zu schwierig für diese Leute aus. Auf iOS hab ich noch nichts ausprobiert (hab ein Gerät zum Testen).
Follow up: Does it make sense to factor in whether a server is running ejabberd or prosody? What are the user-facing advantages or disadvantages? RE:
(I can see a long list of XEPs but I have no idea which of those XEPs are actually used by anyone, so that isn't really helpful in deciding.)
Signal is a secure messenger, but there are interesting alternatives, such as @matrix , @session , @delta , @simplex or XMPP …
#matrix #session #signal #XMPP #messenger #decentralized #tech #technology #OpenSource #FOSS #WhatsApp #security #InfoSec #data #safety
@Jeff @snikket_im @gajim ah, I should have mentioned it: snikket im is an easy to install #xmpp server for family and friends deployments based on the well known prosody.im #xmpp server and developed by one of the prosody devs.
It has a nice web interface to simplify maintenance even further and can be installed via docker and other means.
@contrapunctus
I find it very strange to recommend #XMPP in response to this issue. Modern XMPP clients transmit media out-of-band by uploading the files to HTTP server using https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0363.html and then sending the URL: https://docs.modernxmpp.org/client/protocol/#http-upload. XMPP clients then get an https:// URL and have to download directly from it exposing their IP to the server. It is trivial to setup a server logging IP addresses, upload an image there and send the URL to the victim.
@adbenitez @rysiek
@adbenitez @rysiek I was ready to boost in the first paragraph, and then I saw the #DeltaChat recommendation 😅
I haven't heard good things about DeltaChat UX. #XMPP allows you to self-host, register on public servers without even providing an email address, and ask non-geek contacts to install Quicksy or Prav (so they can register using phone numbers). It's got AV calls and other features expected in modern chat.
And XMPP is actually made for chat from the ground up.
@risottobias You can find interesting #xmpp channels via: https://search.jabber.network/ or just ask on our main community channel: https://invite.joinjabber.org/#chat@joinjabber.org%3Fjoin